Author Topic: Crossbows, think about it  (Read 4568 times)

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Offline Rancid Crabtree

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Crossbows, think about it
« on: June 22, 2010, 05:42:26 AM »
The pro-crossbow crowd says that because a crossbow has two limbs, a string and launches a fletched shaft that it is the same as a bow and that is should be allowed to participate equally with bows during Bowhunting seasons.

We all know this is a bow.



And we know this is a bow.



Both have to be drawn and held by the muscle power of the archer at the time of the shot and in the presence of game. Those two attributes make executing a Bowhunting harvest attempt on game what it is.

A the same time, we all recognize this as a gun. We can clearly see that this is not a bow. In fact, it's an AR-15 assault rifle stockand receiver.



So modifying the other end of this gun with this.



So that you have this.



does not make it a bow any more than adding an outboard motor to the other end would make it a boat or adding a spinning blade would  make it a lawn mower............

It's a modified rifle/bow and as such, has no place in an archery season except for the elderly and handicapped as a way to offer them the advantages of its attributes. If it were not easier and more advantagous to the elderly and handicapped, they wouldn't be allowed for that user group but the facts are that the crossbow and its superior attributes make it a viable choice for those that can't use a bow but would still like to be in the woods during the archery season.

As twisted and irrational as that sounds, the crossbow crowd insists that it belongs in the woods equally with bows and bowhunters and as ridicules as that sounds, that assurtion makes these comparisons equally valid. .50 ca. Machine guns should be allowed to participate in trap and skeet events because both have a barrel and use gunpowder to fire a projectile.



Motorcycles should be allowed to compete in the Tour De France race since both have two wheels, a seat, handlebars and carry a rider.



Jet skis must then certainly be allowed to participate equally with canoes since they both have a hull, seats and both are a watercraft that carries people.



chainsaws ought to be allowed to participate in lumberjack competitions against buck-saws since both, Have a handle, a blade with teeth and are used for cutting wood.



And that F-16 jets should be allowed to participate equally in Ultra light plane events since both have an engine, wings, c0ckpit and can fly and require a pilot.



If the pro-Crossbow crowd thinks a crossbow belongs in the same season as bow, then it's understandable that all these other comparisons make sense and that allowing advanced devices to participate equally with their lesser counterparts should be acceptable since they say they are practically the same anyway. They claim that user groups are just being elite and selfish by not allowing advanced devices to share equally and participate with lesser equipment but we know better and so do they.

The PSE TAC-15 crossbow pictured above is married to an AR-15 Assault rifle and is for sale right now but crossbow makers are still in the infancy of crossbow design. The bow/gun hybrid of today will only get more sophisticated, powerful and advanced meaning that allowing the crossbow of today into the archery season is also allowing the gun/bow hybrids of the future into the archery season but by then, it will be too late to take these weapons out.

No matter how advanced a vertical bow gets, it still has to be drawn by human power to it's peak weight in the presence of game. For that reason, maximum draw weights have not advanced in centuries since it's all based on your own strength and ability to pull the bow to it's peak weight. Because of this, arrow speeds are limited.

Should a bowhunting shot not present itself, the archer has to use his human power to let the draw down and then repeat the cycle again in the presence of game.  This is not true of crossbows. Stocked, cocked and locked means the very essence of bowhunting's final and most important step (and what differentiates it from making an attempt to harvest game with a rifle) is now converted to a firearms style of mechanics, removing the key component to taking game with human powered archery gear . Since there is very little to limit the power and speed of future crossbows that can be cocked with a crank, the crossbows of today are still in their infancy and near limitless in terms of draw weight and speeds thus increasing range and killing power. Because they can be shot off a bench rest or shooting rail, even the very act of a steady hold using human power to aim has been converted to a firearms style of shooting from a braced position.
 
The draw, speed, rest aim, stocked, cocked, locked and shoulder fired crossbow that requires a person to shoulder the weapon, lean into a scope, flip off a safety and pull the trigger are not the movements, actions or physical requirements of the hunting archer and provides advantages reducing the skill set to simply firing a stored energy weapon at game.

Is there a place in the woods for the crossbow? Yes, the elderly and handicapped are able to participate on par with able bodied bowhunters  through the unique advantages and superior capabilities provided by the crossbow.  That advantage is granted to them based on their limited physical abilities to participate in bowhunting. The same could be said for seasons that already allow shoulder fired, cocked, stored energy devices since the crossbow mimics those weapons except for the smoke and bang.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 06:00:37 AM by Rancid Crabtree »
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Offline Rancid Crabtree

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Re: Crossbows, think about it
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2010, 05:44:21 AM »
And why crossbows are bad for WI

A perfect example of what some of us have been saying all along. From this issue of WIsconsin Outdoor News.


Adding crossbows (and the harvest they will bring) will cause losses for bowhunters. We are already seeing calls for a shortening of the archery deer season and reducing bowhunters tags and that is happening without crossbows. This retired WI Wildlife Biologist explains how further increases in bowhunters harvest will mean nothing good for bowhunting. Couple this with the fact that bowhunters numbers in WI are strong (no problems with recruitment) because nobody in WI is excluded from bowhunting and the depressed deer herd and you can see that adding crossbows will hurt the archery deer season in WI.

Gun hunters are already upset with bowhunters and the deer we take and every time bowhunters are asked about full intrusion of crossbows, they oppose the idea.





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Offline Rancid Crabtree

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Re: Crossbows, think about it
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2010, 06:09:02 AM »
The DNR has released two surveys. The 2009 bowhunter survey and the 2009 gun hunter survey. You can view them both at the links below.
 
http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/harvest/reports/bowdeer.pdf
 
http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/harvest/reports/gundeer.pdf
 
 
We now see the herd at the lowest levels in decades with many folks seeing no deer during their entire season and they are being told there are still too many deer. Look at both of the surveys. Many of the questions are the same in both surveys.

Bowhunters and gun hunters (since they are most likely the same person) are giving the same answers.

Question 22 for the bow survey and question 25 for the gun survey asked the same question and that is:

"Think about the number of deer you saw during the entire season. How satisfied are you with the number of deer you saw?"

Bowhunters, 81.1% dissatisfied............ Gun hunters 86.7% dissatisfied.

Question 23 for the bow survey and question 26 for the gun survey asked:

"Please check all of the factors below that you believe affected the number of deer you saw during your 2009 archery deer hunt."

both groups selected "Declining local deer populations as the answer.

Question 24 for the bow survey and question 27 for the gun survey asked:

" Please check all of the factors that may have limited the amount of time you spent deer hunting this fall."

Both groups gave the same reply as the number one reason and that was " Not enough deer in my area to hunt"

Question 21 for bowhunters and question 22 for gun hunters asked :

" Please rate the factors that most influence your perception of a ?quality? deer hunt."

Both groups gave the same answer as their number one. "Seeing deer"

Question 19 for bowhunters and question 21 for gun hunters asked:

" Overall, how would you rate the quality of your 2009 hunt? (Check Only One.)"

Both groups picked "Very low" as their number one reply.

Question 20 for only the Bowhunter survey asked:

" How much confidence do you have in the DNR?s estimate of the deer herd in Wisconsin?"

84.1% had little to no confidence. The gun hunters would (if asked) have said the same thing.

Question 5 for the Bowhunter survey and question 9 for the gun hunter survey asked the same question:

" How strongly do you oppose or support a 4-day antlerless-only GUN hunt in mid-October for management units 20% or more above goal?"

Again, for both groups the number one reply was "Strongly oppose"

The gun hunters and the bow hunters are the same guy and there is no faith in the DNR and there is no faith in their ability to estimate the size of the herd so when we are told our area is 20% over goal, we think the same thing as when they told us it was 500% over goal. We shake our heads and laugh and begin the process of managing the local herds ourselves.

Right now, gun hunters and bowhunters are fighting over the remaining deer and neither group is looking for more hunters and more ways to kill more deer so when you ask either group if they want crossbows in the archery deer season, the gun hunters say "HELL NO!" the bowhunters are killing too many deer as it is." and the bow hunters say "HELL NO!" because the gun hunters want to shorten the archery season and remove our tags even before any talk of crossbow. Adding additional hunters using crossbows killing additional deer prior to the gun season with the herd in the situation that it's in will escalate the already strained relationship between deer hunting groups.

There is a certain segment of the population that are absolutely convinced that crossbows are always the right answer for every state but when you look closer and dig into the details, those blanket statements are a bit to general. So this season there will be 18 deer units in WI in which gun hunters won't be able to kill an antlerless deer (They can't even buy a doe tag).

I met with the head deer biologist who told me that some of the most depressed deer units in the far North will most likely be under this sort of prohibition for the next 10 years (and that's with regular winters. Throw in a couple waist deep winters with plenty of below zero days and those 10 years could turn to 20.) So you will understand that right now, any talk of adding crossbows and additional hunters is something that a majority of both groups will roll their eyes at. I hope like hell that there is a real aggressive push for crossbows in WI and the sooner the better because that will seal the fate for that sort of idea for a decade or more so please do me a huge favor and (especially those from out of state or out of the country) PLEASE ask for................. No, DEMAND that full inclusion be brought to WI and we will have this discussion at the capital in a joint session of both houses. I enjoy those events. Bus loads of WI deer hunters from both groups would show up to explain why we think that might just be a bad idea.

The DNR just asked hunters with the survey you just read and again the answer is NO! and this has the effect of making some here on this site, angry because they are so damned sure that crossbows are always the right answer for every state. The question has been asked and asked and the answer is the same. Perhaps one reason is because nobody in WI is excluded from Bowhunting. Our bowhunters numbers are near record highs so there is no problem with recruitment and retention. If your disabled or 65 and over, God bless you, you can you a crossbow here, the laws allow that and I think that is a fantastic idea and one my 75 year old father thinks is a great idea as well.

There was a first try question at the April spring hearings to lower the crossbow age to 55 and one would think that if there were majority support for full inclusion that something as simple as lowering the age to 55 would be a slam dunk. What did the results show? 53% in favor to 47% opposed so even that idea is getting a split decision. Next year it will be asked again during round two. But what I hear on this forum and on other crossbow sites is that the WBH is an evil group for preventing full inclusion. Well we asked our members this year and low and behold, 79.4% said no to full inclusion, The DNR asked bowhunters and 59% said no.

If you care to comment on the situation in WI I would suggest you read up on the subject first. the study was conducted by the University of Stevens Point. Its called

"Deer managers and deer hunters in Wisconsin: Irreconcilable differences?" a 2008 report on DNR credibility. Here is the link.

http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/Wildlife/fac...man%202009.pdf
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